AlfaPro Alfa Romeo 164 Stepper Gears

Steppers Gears Discussion 1998-99
Postings from the Alfa Digest and 164 Discussion Forum (some material has been edited for relevance and brevity).
See also the more recent Discussion 2000 and Discussion 2001 

 
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:52:21 -0400 From: bjanesi@juno.com Subject: Re:Stepper Motors   Alan Lambert <gerard@crl.com> writes 1) Are there two, or one stepper motors in a '91 L--one person I know says one, but the self diagnostics tell me a 5U and 6U each of which >indicate an open circuit on a different stepper motor.   Absolutely two motors. The part from Fiat is an assembly which includes both of them mounted in a bracket. Very odd that you have an electrical fault on each motor. Makes me wonder if you have a short somewhere which fried both motors.   >2) Is there any inexpensive way to fix the problem (other than a few >hundred for the motors and 8 hours mechanic time) I don't have enough >free time to do it myself.   Live without A/C and heat maybe? I'd take it to someone who really knows the 164 (and will guarantee their work) since your failure seems unusual. Anybody can replace the motors; few can diagnose the cause of the failure so it doesn't happen again (assuming it's not really just a mechanical failure). Brad Anesi '91 Project 164Q 5-speed -------------------  
 
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:00:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Alan Lambert <gerard@crl.com> Subject: Re: Stepper Motors   Well, my stupid quotient is way up there! I forgot that I had undone the connector next to the glove box so as no longer to hear the clicking of the stepper. THAT's why the self-diagnosis showed two open cicuits!--The real symptoms are the typical--defroster and heat only, with no control possible. -----------------  
 
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:59:20 -0800 From: chris.robyn@ucop.edu (Chris Robyn) Subject: 164 stepper motor failure (electrical vs. mechanical)  I've now had my 164/8 for over a year, and have since day one wondered if the stepper motor was out of whack. I've been reading the technical notes on the 164 page about electrical and mechanical failure modes, and was wondering if anyone out there has the same symptoms as my car. Maybe it's not the stepper motor after all. The car is a '91 164 L (cosmetically converted to a 168).   Firstly, the AC has given me no problems both in manual and "auto" mode as it has consistently operated through the temperature range from "LO", which is ice cold, and at all fan speeds with no problems whatsover. The problem occurs anytime I exit the "econ" setting and the compressor is engaged. This can be done both by pressing auto or by switching off econ. At this point, the car begins an electronic whine like a bad stereo installation or wires to close to the Bosch box (I have yet to poke around down there, but will soon). The whine only occurs only when the compressor is engaged and pitch and intensity varies with throttle position, not the fan speed, which makes me wonder if it is in fact the stepper motor after all. In other words, whether you leave the fan at #1 or #4, the pitch of the hum is the same. There seems to be no problem with the mechanical operation of the fan speeds or temperature settings. When you drive away at low rpms, the whine alters pitch as the transmission shifts and the throttle is depressed. The net effect to the passerby is that the car takes on the appearence of an "electric" 164. At freeway speeds the noise is not noticeable.   My question is do these symptoms point to an electronic failure of the stepper motor or could this be something else, such as misrouted wires or something much less severe? I have reason to believe the factory GM stereo may have been removed and replaced, as none of the buttons are illuminated, though the LED display still works. The car was at one time wired for a cell phone, so that may be it also. Before I commit it to the stereo shop, however, I just wanted to see if this all seems plausible and if anyone else out there has been through the same or similar thing.   Thanks.Chris Robyn 84 GTV-6 91 168-------------  
 
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:36:31 -0700 From: "Rich Lasner" <rlasner@modulusguitars.com> 164S Heater Working Great In 100F+ Heat  This past Monday, the rhythmic clicking of the plastic gear in my stepper motor being worn off turned to an insistent grinding noise. The next day, all my vents started blowing very hot air, no matter what the temp. was set at. Seems the motor controlling the drum that selects AC/heat finally quit. I can happily direct the scalding air to any vent I choose, so one set of gears is still with us. Rich Lasner Mill Valley CA 92 164S---------------  
 
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 19:27:08 -0500 From: Ken Stevenson <k.stevenson@chrysalis.org> Subject: Re: 164S Heater Working Great In 100F+ Heat  An emergency repair to restore your air conditioning begins by opening the hood. Remove the plastic cowling between the firewall and the windshield.  The stepper motor moves a rod that passes through the interior firewall to a lever that moves the hot/cold flap. With a long screw-driver, move the lever to the opposite extreme. Stuff a rag in to hold in place. Now you have cold air or hot air, your choice. On the 164 there is no heater control valve, the heater core is always hot.   Regards, Ken ---------------  
 
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:03:19 EDT From: Tonywoodtw@aol.com Re: 164S Heater Working Great In 100F+ Heat   Ken Stevenson wrote:  <<<The stepper motor moves a rod that passes through the interior firewall to a lever that moves the hot/cold flap. With a long screw-driver, move the lever to the opposite extreme. Stuff a rag in to hold in place. Now you have cold air or hot air, your choice. On the 164 there is no heater control valve, the heater core is always hot.>>  That lever broke on my car too, and I managed to repair it by glueing a tin cap onto the end of the lever, complete with stub for the control wire to fit.  It is all so deep down the hole beside the A/C airbox that I had to make a tool to do the job from some 1" x 3/16ths steel. Jaws one end operated by wire pulled by handle the other end. Heat/cold works fine since (pace gremlins!).   Just in case that rag is still under your hood :-)   Regards Tony Wood England '89 164 3.0 V6--------------  
 
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:16:46 -0700 From: "Rich Lasner" <rlasner@modulusguitars.com> Subject: Emergency AC Fix for 164   I took a long screw driver, wedged it between the firewall and the rod/lever assembly as Ken suggested above. I also unplugged the stepper motor power supply, located behind the small panel in the glovebox, to keep the motor from grinding away at the gears. After some careful prodding (the assembly was harder to move than I expected), the rod pulled the distribution drum to the AC position. I now have AC and vent air back. Thanks for the tip.   Rich Lasner Mill Valley CA 92 164S ---------------  
 
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:27:00 -0800 From: Spiros Angelopoulos <spiros@atlas.arc.nasa.gov> Subject: : WTB 164 LS   Things to look for:  - - Stepper motors. Make sure the whole A/C, vent, defrost system work. The best test is to set the temperature setting to full hot (in Auto mode) and see where air goes - in Auto mode air is deflected automatically and the icons/buttons change accordingly. Repeat for full cold and defrost setting.   Spiros '94 164LS '85 Spider --------------------
 
> If I leave the HVAC controls on manual and don't play with them a lot, will > the stepper motor last longer? > (In other words, if I buy a car with a good original stepper motor, is it a > given that it will go?) >   They usually go at around 80K-100K. Yes it will last longer if controlled manually. I have installed a bunch of stepper motors; once you've done 1 or 2, the job's really not all that bad. I'm more concerned with wearing out the compressor, which runs all the time in auto mode. I therefore use my econ setting when I don't need A/C, but let the HVAC computer control the stepper motor at will, as I find its machinations amusing. If I have to do another stepper motor at 175K, so be it.   Joel Hailey Centerline Products Boulder CO 303-447-0239 -----------------  
 
Failed Stepper Motors Tue Dec 29 07:52:40 1998  There seems to be a lot of failed motors discussed.. Is it the motor or just the plastic cogs that are broken? If it's the cogs the Alfa Romeo Owners Club know a guy that makes metal replacements that last for ever. The only problem is you still have to dismantle the dash to replace them. Walter Zanre   - The big fuss about the stepper motor is not the price of the replacement parts, it's more the amount of labour required to access the motor. Last I heard, this takes at least 10 hours. My Alfa mechanic said he charged the last guy $1,300 for the job. Mark.   -Mark I agree, hence suggestion to replace using metal cogs as these never break!! Regards Walter-------------------  
 
Subject: Manual Adj. Temp Control, Gary,, 31 January 1999   I need a little help...my stepper motors are shot on my '91 164B. I've read the tech notes on how to manually adjust the temp. control rod. I've removed the plastic cover under the hood but I'm not sure exactly what or where I should be looking. Also after I get it set, should I pull the plug behind the access cover in the glove box so it stays there? Thanks! Gary   -Look deep and dark down by the a/c; it has a shiny rod connecting and disappearing into the firewall. after I moved mine (after lots of lube), I unplugged my elec connector, but afterwards saw the vent rod move again after the manual stimuli!!! still don't get much heat after moving rod manually all the way... social mike   -If you're not getting much heat after manually operating your temperature cable then your air distribution motor is probably screwed also. There are two motors, identical in design and defects!They tend to fail within months of each other. Strangely,the motor nearest the dashboard operates a long cable through the firewall ending at the heater box as described in another reply to this string. This cable moves the air blending flap which mixes unheated or AC air with the heated air moving through the heater core to adjust the temperature. The heater is always on full as you can tell when you remove a tape from the radio! The temperature is adjusted by changing the proportion of cool outside air and air heated by passing through the heater core. If your electrics are disconnected you can actually operate this cable from inside the car!Inside the glovebox opening is a small access panel, should have tire pressure info on it. A thin flat bladed screwdriver or penknife can be used to pop this off. Inside, you can just reach the motor end of the cable and move the actuator arm with your finger to adjust the temperature. No such luck with the air distribution motor which rotates a drum with slots in it to open and block, sequentially, the defroster, floor heat, floor and vent, and vent positions. When that fails you have no choice as to where the heat or AC is distributed, nor can you reach anything by hand. Also, if you get it fixed get the drum reinforcing ring to install as the actuating end of the drum is prone to cracking and then the replacement of the motors is a waste of money because the distribution drum doesn't respond to the motor accurately. The temperature motor seems to be self indexing, but the distribution drum must be correctly keyed to the motor to work properly. -C M Smith   -Thanks for the info, worked great! Now I have some heat again (and warm toes). Gary-------------------    
 
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:30:41 -0700 From: "Rex Chalmers" <aroms@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Dreaded click of death?   Greetings Alfisti, I was starting my wife's pristine 164 this morning and as I was letting it warm up, I heard an odd, faint, slow (like the speed of your heart beating), click coming from the ventilation system. The system works fine but this click is always present, system on auto, on econ, or off. I've heard other 164s with a loud rapid clicking that turned out to be a stepper motor's ominous "click of death". Is this as stepper motor signaling it's impending demise or am I being paranoid? Rex ---------------  
 
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:47:24 -0500 From: Carl Prochilo <Carl_Prochilo@prodigy.net> Subject: re: Dreaded click of death?   Rex, There is a write-up of this in the Alfa tech notes. My car has a similar problem, except the clicking is present only with the climate control in off the off position. I can can use the controls to direct air properly to any setting, except that in sub-freezing temps here in the Hudson Valley, I have NO HEAT!!! I plan to bring the car to one of the authorized Alfa shops to get it looked at because I know the stepper motor is shot anyway and it is not an easy DIY fix.   Carl P. 1991 164B-----------  
 
Rex,   Just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get you. The sound you describe is indeed the click of death. The clicking comes from a stripped nylon gear in one or both of the two stepper-motors' little gear reduction boxes.   It will only get worse.   Alfa Romeo would have you replace the gearsets, motors, armatures, etc. which are all screwed together into a single assembly which they sell as a unit for hundreds of dollars. The only things that are actually broken are two $0.50 gears.   Getting at the assembly is a somewhat involved process. ARDONA has a video that describes the procedure. If you're going to do the job yourself, you should definitely get the video (IAP stocks it). Alfa also publishes a Technical Service Bulletin on the procedure, written entirely in UPPER CASE. Here it is: http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/b809302.htm   The procedure itself isn't that hard, it just requires patience and care. It's not altogether clear just how some of the dashboard bits are stuck on until you've removed them once. It helps to have long, skinny arms.   Best of luck, Tom thomasw@retail.com ---------------    
 
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:49:30 -0500 From: "Megan Elora Caverly" <meca@loc.gov> Subject: stepper motor replacement gears  Re the Dreaded Click of Death: According to notes I took once upon a time, a guy in the UK supplying (metal, not OEM plastic) 164 stepper motor replacement gears is Doug Hodson. Supposed to be 50 pounds Sterling for a set of 2 aircraft alloy gears.   Thankfully our 164 came with its stepper motor newly repaired so I can't claim to be a satisfied customer. Megan ------------------  
 
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:25:04 -0500 From: bjanesi@juno.com Subject: 164 Aluminum Stepper Gear Alert   ...I saw mention of the replacement aluminum gears from the guy in the UK. With all due respect to his efforts, I have to suggest that you do not bother getting these. Why, you ask? Only two of the three plastic gears are replaced with this "kit". Oddly enough, it is the larger third plastic gear (the one which is not included), that seems to fail most frequently. I'm looking into some other alternatives in my "spare time".   Brad Anesi '91 Project 164Q 5-speed-----------------  
 
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:39:33 -0500 (EST) From: bofusric@webtv.net (ric salinas) Subject: 164 AC Bits   The stepper motors finally quit on me yesterday after three years of noise making. I now cannot turn off the heat, is there an easy way to manually close the heat flap? Is there anyone that has fitted non-Alfa components to the AC system with any benefit to cooling? I am replacing the compressor, expansion valve, R/D. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Ric Salinas 91 Alfa Romeo 164 Pompano Beach Fl-------------  
 
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 14:15:08 -0500 From: Carl Prochilo <Carl_Prochilo@prodigy.net> Subject: Another Stepper Motor Story   Some of you may remember I commented on the fact that my 164 was not delivering heat, and was hearing clicking noises behind the dash. I brought it into a reputable Alfa mechanic up in Albany, NY and had the problem diagnosed and repaired. In the process, I graduated from stepper motor 101 class. The 164 uses two bosch motors attached to a metal bracket. One serves the purpose of redirecting air to floor, to front panel and/or windshield. The other server as an air blend door to control temperature by mixing hot and cold air. On my 164, this had failed. The only good news was that this stepper motor was easier to get at than the panel redirect, and saved me a few $$ in labor costs. The part cost me $290. Carl Prochilo 1991 164 ----------------  
 
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:53:13 -0800 From: KARL C CHEN <karlcchen@juno.com> Subject: Re: 164 stepper motor main. tips   <<What can be done, if anything, to prolong the stepper motor gear's life? I have heard that shutting the the climate control system down before shutting off the car helps, as well as not using the Auto setting on the climate control.   Appreciate any input...Walter Indianapolis, IN 91 164L 44k << Don't use "auto" setting. Change setting as little as possible. I just push "off" button to close it when not needed. When I want it again, I push "off" again, it restarts the last setting without stepping motor moving. - Karl------------------  
 
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:32:42 -0500 From: "David R Johnson" <johnsnd@cig.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Alfa Parts content and Stepper Motor Idea   I also have a question regarding the all too common stepper motor problem. I gather that what happens is that the teeth get stripped off the plastic gears. I have heard of a similar problem in the headlight motors of certain GM models featuring pop-up lights. Some owners had found that they could avoid buying a replacement motor by disassembling it and rotating the stripped gear by 180 degrees. It seems that the gear in question never rotates more than 180 degrees, so the bad teeth are not a problem once moved to an unused portion of the rotation. Is it possible that this trick would work for the 164 stepper motor, or does the gear rotate more than a half turn in normal operation? Of course this is not a complete fix, but it could double the life of the gears. It would be nice if this trick could work for the 164. Does anyone know the answer? Dave J. 1982 GTV-6   Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:34:44 -0500 From: doskow@iucf.indiana.edu (MEL ODIOUS) Subject: Bosch bash   Hi! those 164 stepper motors are so hard to get to that to not replace the things but just reposition the gears would not be very time effective! jak '74 spdr '91 164L --------------- (*also "repositioning" won't work anyway - AlfaPro)  
 
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:52:17 -0400 (EDT) From: richard bies <bies@infobahn.icubed.com> Subject: RE: how did Alfa get this bad rap?   First off, Alfa is not necessarily in the clear when the part is of origin outside Italy -- Alfa put the stepper-motors where they are, and that placement is a big piece of the problem. ...... I don't know of anyone else who buried a failure-prone component as deeply as Alfa did with the stepper-motors. r.m.bies--------------------  
 
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:19:15 -0400 From: "Steven M Tucker" <EROSTRATUS@prodigy.net> Subject: CD   I just recieved my 164 "Csrdisc" CD s. Its a two CD set with full service manuals, videos of commercials and a promotional tape, and a separate CD for the stepper motor service. Glad I didn't pay Huge $ for the paper manuals. Anyone interested can got to www.cardisc.com Or use a search engine using cardisc. ----------------------  
 
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:57:05 +0100 From: "Jerry Parker" <jerry@alfa164.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: 164 stepper/distribution-- OH NO NOT AGAIN!   Here's a new twist on this subject - or at least I haven't seen anyone else report it: the air distribution on my wife's 1991 164 has been stuck on screen only for 9 months, this week it has gone back to full automatic using all the air vents as it should. We haven't touched it ! I suggested to her that she use it manually to put off the day when it goes again but she says 'it's working so I'll use it'. I'll let you know how long it lasts.   Jerry Parker Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 Auto (wife's)-----------------------    
 
Subject: Climate control 31 May 1999 I remember reading about how to manipulate the broken stepper motor to change the air mix for the cabin. Someone said there is a rod that connects to the A/C. I could not find the posting. Please send me the details to activate this rod - Guillermo   -Sorry, no can do. The temperature control is sort of accessible from the inspection hatch inside the glove box door, or from the other end in the engine compartment (very hard to see and almost as hard to reach.) The air distribution motor cannot be touched without removing the dash!!! Might as well bite the bullet and get the steppers done if the air distribution motor is gone. Remember to repair the drum with the metal reinforcing ring available to deal with the drum cracking problem.   Check out the articles in the Tech notes and Brad Anesi's excellent articles for these procedures.   The metal reinforcing ring is for the air distribution drum and deals with a cracking problem. The replacement gears are a different thing, to repair the stepper gearboxes. Not everyone is familiar with the desirability of installing this reinforcing ring, as well as repairing or replacing the steppers. The labour cost to get in there means you should try to do it all correctly on the one try.- Michael Smith-------------  
 
Subject: Stepper or Fan? 3 June 1999 I'm told that when a stepper motor is going, one hears a "ticking" sound. When my fan is set to any position higher than "1" I get this muted "screeeeeeee" sound. But only on higher fan speeds!! When the brake is applied hard enough to nose dive the front, the noise stops.   Is there something tumbling around in the old squirrel cage or will my steppers need tending to? Mine's a 92 "L" which seems to have a better track record on these things. -Ralph   - Steppers? Not likely: Steppers are definitely a ticking sound, a bit like a tiny clock sound. Screeching sounds like a dry bearing in the fan motor, especially since it changes under g loading.   Sorry, I can't suggest how you might reach and lubricate the squirrel cage bearings. The fan motor is enclosed in a plastic housing in the space between the firewall and the front of the passenger compartment under the plastic shield at the base of the windshield visible when the hood is raised.The motor bearing may be accessible from the driver's side of the housing.   The factory manual suggests removal of the motor may be fairly simple, except step one is "remove evaporator unit" which is the AC cooling matrix in front of the passenger side of this space, i.e. it will be necessary to de-charge and disconnect the AC which is not recommended for the inexperienced due to the frostbite risk etc of dealing with decompressing AC systems.- Michael Smith.------------------    
 
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:42:47 -0400 From: "Sedon, Doug (OD/ORS)" <sedond@ors.od.nih.gov> Subject: re: 164 a/c   on my 164L, the stepper motors finally gave up the ghost, & i was only getting HOT air into the cabin - wery unpleasant when we were having 95-100 temps here in maryland! temporary fix was to open the hood, pull the plastic cover that protects the a/c, hvac, wipers, etc. on the passenger side, towards the center of the car, yule find a cable/arm ass'y - pulling this cable out w/a screwdriver effectively allowed the a/c into the car instead of the heat.good luck doug s.-----------------    
 
Subject: 164 air distribution stepper motor, 28 July 1999   I've been looking through the tech notes (brilliant site- I've learned loads!).   One item that caught my eye was from one Tony Wood in England. He mentioned something about changing the stepper on a right hand drive car in 1.5 hrs without removing the dash. As mine has packed up, I'd be extremely interested to hear from him (or anyone else who knows how!). Do you know where I can get in touch? Many thanks, Ian Hopley   -Here's a secret... Most of the peoples email addresses are hidden in the source of the posts on the tech notes. Just do a "View, Page Source" from your browser to see them.-Colin   -I'm not aware of Tony Wood having offered a fix for repairing the RHD air-distribution stepper without removing the dash, but he has posted an interesting zero-cost way of holding the drum in a fixed position (ie never able to alter where the air goes in the cabin). The text of his posting (you'll find it in the tech notes) I've reproduced here (somewhat edited):   (Tony Wood) My 164 is RHD and I found a way to access the air distribution box and cure my problem by locking the flap in a good compromise position. I took out the instrument nacelle (easy job) and there behind it was the stepper motor controlling the faulty flap. This was still working fine, but doing nothing. I could get at the distribution box by cutting a hole in a part of the soft plastic of the dashboard normally hidden by the nacelle, and then made a half-inch hole in the box. You may need to temporarily remove a connector on a bracket, IIRC. With a piece of bent coat-hanger wire I found I could move the flap up and down inside the box whilst the system was working, and found a good compromise position where everything worked except for any change to which vents the air came from into the car. I locked the flap into position with a self-tapper through the box and flap, and sealed up the half-inch hole with a wad of foam plastic. Putting the nacelle back covered all my mods from view.   Now I have fully automatic climate control again, but when the little lights show that air is going to low vents, or windscreen vents, or main vents, nothing changes; air comes out of all the vents, but mainly from the main ones. This is no problem at all, and I was delighted to have fixed what could have been an expensive matter *for free*.   (Tony Wood adds in a later posting...) Had a call yesterday from Alfa Romeo specialist... asking if I would like to see the removed dashboard. Removal didn't look that difficult, as the steering wheel and instrument pod come away with the dashboard. The problem was the same as I reckon I had: the spindle inside the air distribution box had broken at the flap, and the flap was just moving at random. They hadn't found any broken piece. Main disadvantage to removal for the diy mechanic was that the air-con had to be evacuated and later refilled - a fairly pricey business in UK. My solution (which is still OK, and was done via the hole behind the instrument pod) was to lock the flap into a good compromise position, so that air comes out of all the vents; when the little lights move on the control panel, nothing changes. ----------------------    
 
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:16:35 EDT From: Westphal50@aol.com Subject: 164 Stepper motor fix - cheap   If you need your 164 stepper motor replaced without taking the dash apart and are in the SF Bay area - check with Tony at Auto Scientific 650 592 2869. Dave Westphal 164 S --------------   Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:12:35 -0700 From: "Rich Lasner" <rlasner@modulusguitars.com> Subject: 164 Stepper Motor Fix- Cheap?   I called Tony yesterday at Auto Scientific after reading Dave Westphal's post on the Digest about a cheap, no dash removal stepper fix. I have a stepper assembly with new, all-metal gears (got them from Australia) ready to go in, but I wasn't looking forward to ripping the dash out. I've done it before, and it isn't pretty. Tony confirmed what I thought- You can get to the stepper assembly through the side of the glove box (on LHD cars). I had contemplated cutting the left wall of the glove box out carefully, removing the stepper assembly, then re-attaching the glove box wall. Tony revealed he can remove it without cutting the glove box wall. It sounded great until he told me the cost- $1000. I can get it done for less, with the dash removal. I'd have to supply the stepper assembly at the lower price (which I already have). Does Tony have a very dry sense of humor, or is the cost really $1000? That certainly isn't any cheaper than the standard cost of the replacement. I'm not looking for magic, but at a grand, it's not cheap. Let me know if I'm missing something. Thanks. Rich Lasner 91 164S Black 92 164S Red ARA AROC Mill Valley CA ------------------------------  
 
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:03:56 -0700 From: "Rich Lasner" <rlasner@modulusguitars.com> Subject: 164 Stepper Replacement   I may have given the wrong impression in my last post regarding the cost of replacing the stepper motor in my 164. The cost of doing the job, even without removing the dash, that Tony at Auto Scientific quoted me is fully inline with the amount of time and work involved. Tony has found a much less invasive way to get at the problem, and was very willing to share his discovery with me on the phone. It seems he has done what many of us thought was possible- Get at the assembly through the side of the glove box wall.   I was simply disappointed that we LHD guys have to go through so much grief (and cost) to fix this problem. I've done two stepper replacements on my 164s, and can't seem to bring myself to do it again. I was hoping someone had found a more cost-effective way to do it. It's really great that Tony took the time to discover a better way to handle this repair.   Rich Lasner 91 164S Black 92 164S Red ARA AROC Mill Valley CA ------------------------------  
 
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:47:58 -0700 From: "Dr. Ted Siverns" <tsiverns@planeteer.com> Subject: 164 Stepper Gears   I too would like an easier (read less time and/or money) solution for the stepper gears replacement. I've been waiting to get the time and/or money to do mine. What is nice however is the replacement gear set, three per motor from Stuart Heather in Australia. The gears are very well made of bronze and steel. They come with good instructions, are reasonably priced and delivered within a week. My local Alfa specialist is planning to have an exchange units available rebuilt with Stuart's gears. Check out the web site at www.AlfaPro.com. I'm just a satisfied customer.   Ted Siverns, Vancouver, BC: 1991 164S. ------------------------------  
 
Subject: air conditioning, 30 August 1999   Q: I Just Bought a 164LS, 1995.Does the AUTO setting tend to burn out the famous "Stepper Motors"? If you don't need the A/C is it best to leave it OFF or to put it on the Economy setting, to put less strain on those famous stepper motors (gears)? Thanks, Eugene   - The much talked about stepper motor problems is somewhat of a misnomer. The motor themselves are very robust and seldom fail (not that they can't). The much talked about failure is actually the stepper motor gears that actuate the various air control functions of the a/c system, i.e. doors, flappers, etc.. Unfortunately the fix is just as tedious as you have to remove the stepper motors, there are 2, to replace the failed gears. -Jerry in Houston   - The stepper motor problems are generally confined to the '91 to '93 164 models, since a full re-design with improved drives was implemented in '94s and '95s. In any case, unless the mixing air valve stepper locks up in a position bleeding heater air, a stepper failure does not keep the system from cooling. -Kim Lovejoy, '91 164B Auto 108K   -My recommendation is NEVER use the "Auto" function for your climate control. Manually switching will probably help to extend the life of the stepper motor gears and give your finger a little excerise. Also recommend use the temp control button to turn off the A/C instead of cycling the "Econ" button to turn on and off the A/C. If you have the first generation stepper motor, it will eventually fail, unless you leave the temp control in one permanent position.-ETC '91 164B 5-sp 74K mi   -Sorry guys, the steppers are still being stressed even if the system is "off". Off just closes the recirc flap and sends the air blend temp flap to full closed. The motors still pulse, stressing the gears. The temp selection has no direct effect on the steppers. The system is electrically controlled using a feedback loop dependent on a temperature sensor (in the roof console in the 91) which causes the stepper to adjust an air blend flap. There's no mechanical connection and no water valve, the heater core is full on hot at all times, the air flap just varies the amount of outside or air conditioned air passing through the heater core from zero to all. Using the manual setting could actually stress the steppers more. The real fault is the design of the dash which prevents convenient access to the steppers for repair. - Michael Smith -----------------------
 
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 From: C M Smith <cmsmith@telusplanet.net> Subject: 164 steppers The steppers are a big deal. Lots of info accessible from the Alfa 164 home page. Brad Anesi writes very clear and comprehensive how to articles which can be accessed from the 164 home page, I recommend them whether you intend to do the work yourself or have a mechanic do it. It gives you a healthy perspective on the challenges this job entails.   The steppers operate even if the ACC is switched "off". It never sleeps so long as the ignition is on. When the ACC is switched off, the temperature mixing flap motor rotates the flap to full closed (i e cold position) and the recirculation motor (not one of the infamous steppers but a stepper type motor of a different design, located on the end of the AC evaporator housing in the false bulkhead area of the engine compartment) causes the recirc flap to close the outside air inlet. The temperature mixing flap motor pulses to maintain pressure on the flap to exclude any warm air flow, and depending on how many gear teeth have stripped on your particular stepper, the frequency of the ticking can vary. The temp control motor is closer to the surface of the dash (just behind the left side of the glovebox) and the ticking from that sounds closer than from the stepper controlling the air distribution drum deeper in the dash. Also, when the ignition is switched off, the recirc flap and temp control flap return to these "off" positions, regardless of any manual or automatic settings selected.   When repairing these items, consider repairing the gearsets only as the motors are usually fine. Sources exist in Australia for these bronze gears. Also, forget any idea of spending all that time just to replace one motor and gearset, do them both, they both break eventually. There is also a fix for a known fault with the air distribution drum which cracks, causing the motor to lose it's "key" and cause random distribution settings (grrrh). the fix is a metal reinforcing ring installed on the end of the drum (whether it's cracked yet or not), before installing the stepper motors on their robust one piece bracket. -- Michael Smith Calgary, Alberta Canada 91 Alfa 164L, White, original owner -----------------------------------  
 
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 From: C M Smith <cmsmith@telusplanet.net> Subject: 164 steppers again... For those awaiting surgery on their dashboard due to stepper failure, I recommend you consider disconnecting the inboard end of the cable from the stepper before jamming the other end with a screwdriver or whatever 'tool" is popular these days. The inspection hatch in the glovebox opening will allow access to the cable end which can be removed from the actuating arm, allowing the other end to be manipulated relatively easily. Indeed, in a desperate moment I considered boring a hole in said inspection hatch and rigging up some sort of string or stick arrangement to give me temporary manual control of the flap! This was after seriously contemplating "correcting" the incredible engineering error made by ALFA in designing a dashboard that is essentially unserviceable, with a hole saw of the correct size. For the record, I managed to figure out a way to replace the temperature stepper through this inspection hatch, with the assistance of a very persistent and skilled mechanic. Just as I was broadcasting this feat to the Digest, the other stepper started to click so pointless really. - Michael Smith -------------------------------  
 
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 From: "MONTANO, MONICA" ...... I will be replacing the faulty stepper motor gears with the metal gears provided by (ALFAPRO in Australia) this weekend.... - Monica '91 164L --------------